Q- Could you speak about the moment that this question came to you, "Who gets enlightened?"

A- I was on a spiritual path for many years where I was practicing techniques of meditation, very beautiful techniques, practicing yoga, a lot of fasting, really focused inwardly for many years. And there were beautiful experiences from that. The retreats were long, many of them four or six months in length, mostly in Europe and Asia - France, Spain, Switzerland, Thailand, and of course India. It was a time of retreat from the world. Really looking for one's self. Trying to find, "Who am I?" After more than 20 years of this, just practicing, practicing, practicing, retreating as much as time and resources would allow, there began to be an exhaustion with it all. And a question, "Where is this leading?" At one point my husband and I got an invitation to attend a retreat in San Diego with Deepak Chopra. He was just starting out with his public teaching at that point. He had developed some new techniques of meditation and purification and opening the heart, and he wanted to test them on some people. He was inviting us to a hotel in San Diego to test these new techniques to see what would happened. The expectation was of course, that enlightenment would happen. As I was looking at the brochure, the beginning of a thought arose, "Maybe . . if I do this I will find what I am looking for. .." Immediately after that thought I turned to my husband and said, "Well, we have spent many years sitting around in hotel rooms practicing techniques." We both laughed. And there was just this clear, "No. We've done that enough. We've done it with all our hearts. It is what we gave all of our young lives to. Not establishing a career, not securing our finances, not having children, just doing that." That is what we did. And we didn't get what we wanted. We didn't feel any more enlightened than we did before. We had wonderful experiences, but so what? You can eat chocolate and have a wonderful experience. So it was right at that moment, looking at Deepak's brochure, when the thought arose, "Who is it that gets enlightened?"

Q- What happened in that moment when there was the realization that it wasn't about another technique?

A- There was a moment of really knowing that was true. That it wasn't about practicing any more. And there was a surrender. It was a huge moment. I would say, IS a huge moment- because actually that does not take place in time. In the practicing there was a "me" doing it. There was someone wanting to get something. And I believe in that moment the "I" that was trying to get something stopped. And the next moment a series of questions came, "Is it the mind that gets enlightened? Is it the ego? Is it the personality." And somehow it was just clear that it was none of those. When all the candidates were exhausted, there was nothing. I didn't know in that moment that that was the answer. Nothing. That there is no one who can get enlightened. And I didn't even realize that the answer had come in that moment. But it had. Nothing is the answer. Very shortly after this my husband and I were catapulted to Boulder, Colorado unexpectedly, and I met Gangaji there. She confirmed immediately that there is no one to get enlightened. That who you are, this enlightened one that you have been seeking in something else, has always been here, only unnoticed because of the busyness of seeking here and there.

Q- That is silence then. When the self recognizes its self. Can you speak about what it has been like to be with Gangaji over a period of time? Has it deepened the confirmation?

A- Oh, yes. Once that has been seen, once the truth of one's self has been met, deeply, totally met, as silence itself, what can arise in that is once again the mind, scrambling, trying to hold onto something. There is a strong impulse for the mind to want to have enlightenment, and of course, it can't. It is like the physicist trying to see subatomic particles, and when they try to look at them, they are not there. The very seeing of the physicist looking at a particle disturbs what they are trying to see, and so it disappears. Yet it is the nature of physicists to want to see subtler and subtler into matter. It is the nature of the mind to want to possess experience, to capture it and own it. That is its job, so to speak. So naturally when the most sublime experience appears, the recognition of oneself, the mind reaches out to grab for it.

Q- So what is the difference between somebody wanting to purify the ego and the burning that happened in your meeting with Gangaji?

A- I believe the initial impetus for the search for enlightenment begins as an egoic thought, "I want enlightenment-for me." The ego wanting to be brilliant, wanting all of the powers that it imagines will come with enlightenment, wanting the security, the power actually. And the freedom to do what I want to do without any restriction. This is the ego's idea of enlightenment. In the meeting with Gangaji, in that moment I couldn't find that ego. There was a silence in the mind, and at first I didn't know what had happened. There were no thoughts arising. There was just quiet. And that may have lasted some days, perhaps some weeks. And then the mind arose again and wanted to have that quiet. The mind arose and said, "Look! I got quiet! Isn't this great!" And then, without even realizing what had happened, the mind is re-engaged, the ego is reincarnated. This is what the mind does.

Q- What happens then?

A- Well, if you are lucky, you are at the feet of a teacher who sees that arising. Looking back I can see that what the relationship with Gangaji did is it pulled out all of the ways in which the mind wanted to do that. She coaxed it out into the open. With love, with slaps, with praise, with blame, in all her masterful ways of dancing with me, she coaxed out of hiding all the unseen, subtle tendencies of mind. She really exposed this mind and all of its hidden desires. Papaji once said to a man, "Now that you've awakened, expect all that you have held at bay in order to get enlightenment to now come clamoring to your door. And don't pay any attention to it. Don't follow it. Don't resist it. Be still." This is the guidance, the beauty of an awakened teacher being with you at this time. So much can arise when the mind is silenced. There can be huge upheavals physically, emotionally, circumstantially. They can be very overshadowing if one is not in the presence of a teacher who is stillness itself. Whether that presence is in physical form or not, it is the time to just be still at the feet of the master for the onslaught that can arise.

Q- How is life to be lived then?

A- It is no different whatsoever in the sense that this confirmation of oneself, this recognition of oneself as silence, is known to have always been here. It has always been the truth of one's being. The experience is clearly that nothing has happened. Nothing has changed. And one knows that. So there is just a, "Yes! This is who I have always been!"

Q- I would like to speak about your experience as a teacher. I feel like truth is like a fish. In one moment you think that you have got it and in the next you realize it is swimming in front of you. In particular, I see today that this truth that "you are consciousness", and that "the world is just a dream", has been heard by so many people, and yet is not really understood. There is still much more attention put into changing the circumstances of one's life. I see people hearing this, but like a fish, the truth escapes once again.

A- The habits of mind can be very strong. And the mind is a great imitator. Even after the clear recognition of the truth of oneself, the thought of oneself can still arise an be believed. Maybe with a new look-an enlightened thought of oneself! The story of one's life is in the mind, and the mind holds that in memory. And it is nothing. Just some thoughts. Even the birth of this body is just a thought. If this is believed again to be who you are, there is suffering, because the body is impermanent. Emotions come and go. Brilliant thoughts come and stupid thoughts come. Circumstances are sometimes wonderful, and sometimes horrible. This is called the story of one's life. And that still goes on. But if not believed to be real, it is just a movie. Movies are great fun, or maybe sometimes horrible, but you walk out of the movie and you go out to dinner with your friends. You don't walk away thinking it was real. Once the recognition of who one is has pierced the belief in the story, the story is never quite believed in the same way again. There are still beautiful experiences and challenging experiences, there is the memory of my life, the story of my life, but it has a very light weight to it. The opportunity then is to be true to what has been recognized, rather than true to the movie. To the degree you believe the movie to be real, to be who you are, there is that degree of suffering.

Q-As a teacher, what are people asking for in their life, really? Where do you see the actual shift in people who come to see you?

A- Some people come to hear this with great seriousness. They have searched and searched and are tired. They are tired of reaching into the mind. By reaching into the mind I mean reaching into circumstance, reaching into the mind for fulfillment, in emotional states, or mental states. There is a lucky moment when one sees that it is not there. Maybe they have attained some desired circumstance and found it is empty. Or they maybe they haven't attained the desired circumstance and yet sense that it is futile to look for it there. This is a very lucky recognition. To have this exhaustion with looking elsewhere. That is where I was when I met Gangaji. Exhausted in looking. Even in the spiritual search. You have gone to too many retreats. Practicing too many techniques. And seeing this emptiness in achievement, success, or acquiring, there is a moment when you are just willing to hear. I find that willingness more and more present with people now. I am very impressed with the maturity of people that come and are really willing to hear this. There are also people who come who want to make the "me" happier, make their circumstances better, their emotions better, their relationships better. They are looking for something to make their life story better. They can't really hear this seriously. There is still that hope that they will find something- in circumstance, in emotion, in mind that will bring fulfillment. But that hope is keeping them in the future. Because that is what hope is- a projection into the future. They aren't exhausted enough to stop searching, to really call off the search. There is a beautiful poem where a student asks the master, "Why is my life different from a saint's?" And the master says, "Because the master is someone who realizes that the spiritual search is like a great chess game with God. And God has just made the most fantastic move that cannot be countered. So he falls down in blissful surrender, laughing in joy. And you, my dear, still think you have a thousand serious moves!"

Q- This is so ruthless, so clear. I feel like it pierces through so many layers of seeking, of religion, of self-improvement. There is finally this clear light which stops everything. It is so total. There is nothing left in the periphery. Are you concerned about the state of the planet? Do you feel that this growing awakening has any relation to possibly improving the state of the environment?

A- I don't know what the particular fate of the planet is, other than that it will eventually pass away, as all form does. But I know that the religion of "me"- me first, me above all else- causes much suffering, including disrespect for the planet which manifests in much of the human-induced environmental problems. The result of the worship of "me", and "what I can get for myself" is suffering. This is seen in the spiritual camp, in the environmental camp, in the political camp, in the business sector. This force of ego, of "me, myself and mine" plays itself out in the theatre of pleasure and pain. Believing that to be real is suffering. It is a shame to see how the earth is disrespected. I have heard Gangaji say, "I don't know if this earth can be saved. But I know that it is impossible unless people wake up to the truth of their being."

Q- I have the sense that the tendency is to overlook this simple, yet so powerful realization of who we are. We overlook the immensity of who we are.

A- Yes, overlooked. It is really good to see that tendency. To be horrified by it, or humbled by it, or shocked by it. To just see it.

Q- Can you speak about your experience of devotion? What does it mean to give yourself in love to the teacher?

A- The relationship between the teacher and the student, the guru and the disciple, is really the relationship between the mind and the self. It is not a person and a person. It is the mind, surrendering to the self. To who one is. It is really who one "thinks" one is, surrendering to who one "is." The master comes along as an outer representation of who one is. So that who one thinks one is can give itself fully to that. As long as there is the body, there is some remnant of who one thinks one is present, manifested. Body is thought, emotion is thought, thought is thought. Some teachers say that if you maintain awareness of who you are for 10 or 15 years you have it, this thought of who one thinks one is, is annihilated. But Papaji says to be vigilant until the last breath. As long as there is a body there is the possibility of a thought arising of who you are as "something." If it arises, it needs to be seen. In not following that to be real, there is a fire that arises inside. Still, especially when I am on retreat with Gangaji, in each interaction with her, there is the exposure of some identification. In the willingness to be still in that exposure, it is burned, instantly. If there is any resistance to that being exposed, then there is the prolonging of the fire, and an experience if burning, or of a process. But really, there is no process necessary. Process, burning, is just some resistance. Mental, physical, emotional, or circumstancial resistance. Resistance too, is simply seen by the seer. No need to follow the thought of why this is still arising, or when will this thought stop. Thoughts just come up, some identification arises, and it is seen. Then just see it. And in the seeing, see the seer. Getting back to your question of devotion, my experience actually, is every time there is something that is exposed like that, the love for the teacher deepens. The gratitude for having that exposed is more and more. You can fall deeper into yourself. Deeper into love.

Q- This exposure is love then. . .

A- Yes, self loving itself.

Q- So you would say actually, that love IS the exposure of self to self.

A-Yes, because one's real self is love. And by exposing the lies that seem to cover that truth--or more accurately, exposing the mind activity that perpetuates the illusion of the lies being real--as those are just uncovered and cut and burned, the deepening into oneself is the deepening into love.

Q- This can even be the jewel of a human relationship! The willingness to expose endlessly the true self, to the other, to ruthlessly tell the truth. It seems to me that this is what is often yearned for.

A- Yes.

Q- What is the grace in having one teacher?

A-When I recognized Gangaji as my teacher, as my own self, I had never recognized myself so deeply in another human being before. And in that recognition, there was no where to escape. There was no place for the mind to go. I had met other teachers, but because the meeting had not been so total, so full out, there were escape hatches where the mind could take refuge. So that the sword of truth did not have to be met. When some people meet a teacher, there is an explosion of love that is incredible. But as soon as the sword comes out, and the exposing of the lies, (cherished lies) begin, the student takes off for another teacher, for another explosion of love, and then another, and another. Escaping the sword every time, and just going for the bliss of the meeting. It is like having a splinter under your skin, sometimes a splinter gets underneath the skin pretty deeply, and even though you can't see it, there is a tender spot that tells you that it is there. So when you meet the master, she will expose the splinter. She says, "Oh, there is a splinter here!" And she starts digging. And it hurts! And you want to pull your finger away. But she sees the splinter, and proceeds to dig it out. It can be very painful to expose the lies, the identifications. When you meet the master, you are happy to give over all of your identification with suffering, especially the feeling of worthlessness, all of the stuff that you don't want. But then she also will divest you of all of the cherished parts of yourself. Your identification as a good person, as a spiritual person, whatever cherished ideas or concepts one has about oneself. Even the idea of yourself as one who can attain enlightenment has to go. When she starts digging at those, there is a tendency to want to run! "This is not what I wanted, I didn't want this stuff! I wanted bliss, joy, to reveal my angelic nature!" But the teacher also reveals your demonic nature too. Because there is a demon in everyone, ugly, nasty, selfish to the core. The arrogant identification of one's self as a "somebody" ultimately in its core is extremely selfish. And that needs to be uncovered. And seen. That has to be thrown into the fire. And that is not comfortable for the mind. So the love that one feels from the master is a very important aspect because if you are so in love with someone that even if it hurts, you stay. THAT is how much in love you have to be. Because the ultimate pain, the pain, the lie of separation (and that lie is the most painful lie to let go of) because you have to let go of all hope that there is any way you can make yourself acceptable, pure, in the eyes of God. And in letting that go, only then you see that there never was any separation. But it is painful to let that go. And can be a scream, a primordial scream of agony that the soul experiences in having that uncovered. That is my experience. And if there was any other teacher- if I was thinking, "Well, Gangaji is my teacher but there are other teachers as well," then as soon as there was the slightest touching on something that doesn't want to be seen, the mind would go elsewhere, and escape-before you even know it. But when there is no one else, that is the luck. There is no one else. When you meet the master, for real, and truly accept that as master, as self, the mind fully lays itself down. In that moment, there is nowhere else to go. That is your world, right there. No escape.

Q- It seems as if in the Western world there have been examples of abuse between the disciple and the teacher, and some Western minds are afraid of that, so they keep some kind of separation between themselves and the teacher.

A- Yes, some "out". That is the excuse that the mind uses to leave at the first opportunity. If you see the teacher as "other" and something separate from yourself, then that is not the teacher. That is another image in the mind, that now you have called "teacher." The true teacher is your own self, and is experienced as that. It is unmistakable.

Q- And I do not know, because I do not have the direct experience of abuse in a teacher relationship, but it seems to me that when a teacher is truly ruthless, that ruthlessness leads to a burning, which then leads to love. The burning is extremely deep, it penetrates the mind and reveals the heart.

A- Well, the burning is not exactly what is deep. It is the willingness, to be still, that is deep. That is true. And in that willingness, what arises, arises. If the impulse to run arises, it arises. It is not followed, because one is still at the feet of the master. The mind is still at the feet of the self. If something really uncomfortable comes up that you don't want to see, you see your resistance to that. That resistance is the burning, really. It is the resistance that burns. If there is no resistance, the seeing is instantaneous. You see it, and say, "Wow! That was arrogance that just came up!" And it is just seen without having to do something about it, without trying to cover it, or deny it, or even transform it. Just seeing it. Gangaji once pointed out to me that I was getting attached to my burning... I was holding on to the burning as if it was my meditation, my practice now. And that is not it either. What she told me is, "Simply see what is arising. Simply see." Lies are very interesting things. They cannot withstand the light of seeing. It is like camphor. They burn instantly. If there is some resistance to that seeing, some dance around it, some, "ooh, excruciating, not wanting to see it, sort of seeing it..." then that is the burning. And just the willingness to see, it is instantaneous, one finger snap, ever deeper. Getting back to your question about only one teacher-- there is an analogy I use sometimes when I speak with people. And individual is like a wave on the ocean. And the wave is going along, splashing, having a good time, when suddenly it thinks, "I'd like to know my source. I have heard that the ocean is my source, but I am just a wave and all I see are other waves. I want to see my source, to know my source." So it goes and asks other waves which are bigger and wiser, and they say to him, "Well, the ocean is your source. Just know that." And the little wave says, "Well I have heard that, and I believe it, but I want to experience it." And so maybe the wave tries different techniques to try to experience that. Finally, the ocean, out of some mysterious compassion for this minuscule part of itself, the whole ocean rises up in a single wave! And the little wave says, "Oh my gosh, there is the ocean! Only looking like me, looking like a wave!" Then it sees itself. It sees the magnitude of itself. Because the magnitude of itself appeared, looking like a wave. And that is the mystery of a master, of a guru. Your own self somehow mysteriously appears looking like you. The ocean of beingness somehow mysteriously appears to you looking like a person!

Q- Looking like me! This is really amazing. To see someone just like you, who shops, drives, lives in a town, whose life looks exactly the same. And you are drawn to that person, mysteriously, for some unknown reason. And that is the mystery. It just draws you and draws you and draws you.

A- It is a very great luck to see that. To see the whole ocean of one's self in another being. And for some people, one glimpse is enough. Others may need to stay physically near that for some time. Because of what will arise in the onslaught of such seeing. It can be so divine, one can follow that divinity and then one can get lost again in the thought that one's self is so divine or that the teacher is so divine. Or it can be so terrifying, and one can get freaked out by the terror of seeing. Both can happen, and do happen. Being still at the feet of the master is just a support to be still with what arises. With the demons that arise, with the angels that arise. Just be still. When Buddha sat under the bodhi tree, all the goddesses came and he was still. Then all the demons came, and shot flaming arrows at him, and still he didn't move. He didn't move away from terror, and didn't move toward beauty. He just stayed still. And finally his own ego appeared, and said, "Hey... we finally did it! We got enlightenment! You and me! What a team! " And of course, he remained still, he didn't reach for that either. This is the ego trying to claim the awakening. The ego wants to have this enlightenment for itself, like it wants to have any experience. That is the one door it cannot go through. The recognition that it cannot go through that door can be agonizing. Agonized by the fact that what it wanted most, it can never have. In the willingness to let that in all the way, let that be experienced fully, in that agony, is its annihilation. When it sees that, it wants to draw back from this enlightenment thing altogether. It says, "I thought I was going to get this!" And when it sees that it can't, that it is dead on arrival, it naturally wants to back pedal. That is the grace of being at the feet of an enlightened master. One could easily give in at that moment without that support. Q- How happy I am to meet you here, at the feet of the master! A- I am telling you the whole truth here, as I have experienced it. This was a huge, stubborn, strong ego that came to meet Gangaji. And I didn't know how huge it was. It had to be exposed, with all of its hidden agendas. It wanted enlightenment for itself. And in the dance with her, it was totally bared. And that pain of being exposed! It is so easy then to fall into worthlessness, but that is not it either. That is the same arrogance, holding onto this idea of worthless now. There is nowhere to abide anywhere. The mind cannot abide in this awakening. It is annihilated. It will try, it will attempt subtler and subtler ways of holding it. But it will fail. The meeting with the master is such incredible grace. I know many people with many teachers, and they receive something from each one. But for me, from my experience, there had to be just one. Because when that little wave sees the ocean arising in one wave, what else is there! There is just the little wave, and the master, the ocean, which has arisen to meet it. Everything else is annihilated in that experience. There is nowhere else to go then. All else is mind. Reaching for something or escaping from something.

Q- Is there anything you would like to end with?

A- To end like we began, in silence. . .