| Bruce
Now you begin your book here on pg. 5 and I'm going to quote
this, with this," 'Like a lamp in a windless place that
does not flicker' -- this is how the Bhagavad Gita describes
the mind of an awakened being. Released from the pangs of
anger, fear, and envy, such a soul remains at peace in the
midst of the world, unmoved by the endless polarities of the
'pairs of opposites' - pleasure/pain, gain/loss, Arrogance/worthlessness,
acceptance/rejection, happiness/sorrow, and on and on."All
this philosophy you say you understood so well. But philosophy
and understanding had caused you to come to finally realize
that they could not give you freedom. And so that, let's start
there. They couldn't give you freedom. Why is that?
Amber
Because the understanding was just in my mind. It was a mental
understanding of that Truth which I was longing for. And the
understanding of it only made me want it more. The fact that
I understood it so well only made me long for it more. But
I I, it wasn't being experienced. It wasn't being lived.
Bruce
Now so most people I guess, and and and I myself included
have, and when I say most people I mean most people that are
that are let's say on this enlightenment search so to speak
basically develop great vocabularies. They have incredible
wisdom. But the bottom line is that the experience is eluding
them and I think that that's something you were talking about
it the book.
Amber
Yes. And there's a there's a there's a a certain point where
you're willing to say that because you know I it's it's very
easy to throw out the terms, you know, "All is one. I
am that." You know these kinds of Truth. It's true that
we are all one. It's true that that there's no separation.
And when that is studied by the mind and then taken as a mental
concept it can actually be used to deflect from the fact that
it is not being experienced. And as long as that deflection
is fascinating you and you know, you're playing in that deflection,
that's not possible to really directly inquire, "Who
am I really?" So my sense of of the spiritual search
is that it serves to a certain point. Yet there's a certain
point where a lifetime is turned from things of the world,
from the material wealth, material security, relationships,
career, all the ways in which fulfillment is sought in the
world. Somehow there comes a point where one turns from that
and says, "You know, it's not here. There's something
I'm longing for that isn't here." And then often turning
to the spiritual search and getting involved in that arena
of acquisition. And it's the same acquisition. It's the same
searching for something for me, to fulfill me. And when that
search runs its course which it did for me, that's that's
the beginning of the book that you read, you know, the same
thing, "Well, gee, I've been doing this for 25 years
now and practicing all these techniques and understanding,
studying all these things." And and I I still feel that
I'm not living what I'm understanding. And one way that that
actually appeared to me I would say, and and it's not in the
book but I was just thinking of a particular experience where
I realized, "I'm not living what I think I'm living.
I'm not living what I'm understanding." When I was with
a a a young man, who was a friend of mine and we were both
on this very, you know, intense spiritual journey and practices
and study, we happened to be studying Thomas Merten at the
time and he was, we were both reading, you know, this book
of his and he talks about feeling one with all of nature.
One with, looking at the flowers and seeing God's face. And
we took a walk after this reading we did together. And we
were just kind of reveling in this beautiful language of Thomas
Merten, the beautiful expression of oneness with all life
that he was expressing, and just kind of reveling in that.
And after walking along this path in this mountain retreat
we were at at the time, a rattlesnake was sunning itself on
the path in front of us and woke up as we got close, very
close, and started his rattle, you know. And we both drew
back in terror, our hearts pounding. And we looked at each
other and said, "Where did the love go?" And we
realized that, in that moment, we realized that we had been
kind of mentalizing this oneness-with-all-life thing and in
that moment of experience we really, we saw God's laughter
in it because He was showing us that that we weren't living
that. If we were living that there wouldn't have been fear,
extreme terror that kinda jumped out at us in that moment.
We would've seen, "Ah, this too is God." And there
was there that moment of kind of shocking the mind out of
its mental mentalizing of this Truth that Thomas Merten was
speaking to the reality of what we were experiencing. And
the reality of what we were experiencing was that we were
separate from this rattlesnake and that rattlesnake was a
threat to our lives. And so it dropped immediately us down
into our own experience, our own direct ______ to tell the
truth. What am I really experiencing here?
Bruce
Now
it's interesting that you say in the book, and and I really
have to agree, that the mind even takes the concept of enlightenment
and then makes it hers or his so to speak.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
And that, and that is the mentalizing you're talking about.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
The fact that the mind still wants to separate it and that's
and that's why, let's say the in zen they call it the pathless
path. You you can't want it. You can't get it. It always seems
confusing to people when they first hear that but the reality
is what you say in your book. The mind makes it into something
that it's not going to have the experience.
Amber
That's right. The mind cannot experience enlightenment. The
the mind doesn't get enlightened. Let's put it this way, the
mind does not get enlightened. The mind does not wake up.
The person doesn't wake up. The person is a thought, it's
a it's a series of a whole wearing of thoughts that one has
created about the truth about oneself. You know, I'm this
tall, I have this kind of body. I wear these kinds of clothes,
I have these kinds of friends. I have these kinds of fears,
I have these kinds of strengths.
Bruce
And it always starts with the word "I."
Amber
Yes. This is the doll that you've made in your mind that you
then identify with as being yourself. One of the ways that
I begin a a lot of my talks when I speak to people is, "You
are not who you think you are." This is the message really
from my teacher Gangaji. You are not who you think you are.
And this is something that doesn't have to be believed or
taken on faith or memorized. It's something that can be investigated
directly. And one of the things I do when I meet with people,
especially people who have been on the spiritual search for
a long time, is try to get them out of their heads with it
and into what they are really experiencing in this moment.
Because when I hear someone say, "Well, I I know I'm
I'm I'm all one. I know I'm one with everything. I know there's
no separation. And yet I still experience such and such in
my life, a suffering or something in my life." And I
say, "Well, don't know those things. Forget all that.
Forget that all is one. And just, you know, be willing to
tell the truth about what is being experienced right now in
this moment."
Bruce
You're listening to Timeless Voyager Radio. My name is Bruce
Steven Holmes. My guest today is Amber Terrell.
She's the author of a book called, "Surprised by Grace,
a Journey Beyond Personal Enlightenment." Incidentally
if you want to check out our webpage and we'll have a link
on the on the page anyway, but if you're listening to this,
http://, you know this stuff, www., and here's the part that
is new, RiverGanga, River is r-i-v-e-r g-a-n-g-a, one word,
dot org. Let's talk a little bit about Gangaji. Let's talk
about how how you met Gangaji. And maybe a little bit about
some of your surprises.
Amber
When I I was, like I just said, I was on the spiritual search
for from 26 years actually, and in fact it was 26 years to
the day when I met Gangaji. 26 years that I had, since when
I had first been initiated into meditation practice and into
this whole realm of spiritual search and spiritual practice.
And I was having some depression that night about, "Gee,
you know, 26 years and I didn't get it. You know, I didn't
get it." A friend of mine called and she had been with
Gangaji's teacher, H.W.L. Poonja, Papaji who he was called
by his disciples. That was that's Gangaji's teacher. And this
friend of mine had been with Papaji and she said, "You
know, this this lady who's a disciple of Papaji. You might
like her. And she's coming to town, to Boulder, where I was
living at the time. She's speaking tonight and it's the last,
she's actually been here for some weeks and she this is her
last night. And I just had this thought that maybe you'd like
to see her." I resisted her invitation at first because
I realized, "Gee, you know I'm I'm really tired of hearing
people talking about enlightenment. I've been hearing that
for years and it hasn't done me any good." Also I was
kind of tired of Indian stuff and the name "Gangaji"
conjured up a brown skinned woman in a sari to me. I I thought
it was an Indian woman and my friend never corrected that
for me. But somehow I went with her to this lecture that day
and as Gangaji walked into the room and I saw this American
woman, white hair, looking very similar to myself, very similar
age and size as myself, something… stopped inside. I
would say now looking back I can say that my mind stopped.
At the time I didn't know what it was that stopped. It seemed
like the whole world stopped. It was not a thought that could
arise in my mind suddenly. And I was just present. I was just
there in the room in the presence of this woman and 200 or
300 other people, however many were there that night. And
I I don't really even remember that much what she said that
night. It wasn't even what the words that she was speaking.
Something was emanating from her, some some transmission of
peace. That was what I was looking for and she was living
it. Not speaking it, not talking about it or pointing to it
in some way. What I was experiencing was her transmission
of it, that she was living it and there was some transmission
that was flowing out in the room and that was received by
me in a in a very deep way. And I I could say for hour or
hour and a half that I was sitting there with her I forgot
myself. I forgot the "me" that was looking for anything
and was just sitting there in this stop, this gap, this emptiness,
this peace. And that when she walked out of the room at the
end of the talk I just felt this incredible explosion of gratitude
in my heart for her. Not really understanding any of this,
just the direct experience of peace and gratitude. So that
was my first encounter with her.
Bruce
Now you had had been with a a number of of learned or or wise,
should we call them gurus or teachers for for like you said,
a quarter of a century. What what do you think was the problem?
Amber
You know, I I I don't know. That's that's kind of a mystery
because I can't say that that the people I was with before,
the teachers I was with before, were not more less enlightened
or anything. I mean I remember when I first met Ammachi, beautiful
Indian woman. She walked in the room and I said, "My
God, this is God." I saw, I felt I was seeing God in
her. I mean, she's obviously an incredibly awakened being.
And Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, I was with for many years. And
also just the transmission from him was was awesomely beautiful.
And yet somehow it took seeing that in form that was so much
like me that that it could not be denied anymore that that
was my own Self that I was seeing. Because I'd always seen
the teachers I'd been with, I'd always seen them as someone
else. That person enlightened. That person radianting God.
That person radiating peace or darshan or whatever. Separate
from me. When I saw Gangaji that that that that experience
ended. It wasn't like there was any separation anymore. It
was like me and her. The separation was ended and I realize
when I met her this way and and and recognized what had taken
place that the separation had vanished. That that is what
the true meeting of the teacher is. It's not a person meeting
a person. It's not a person at the feet of a person. It's
the mind at the feet of Self. It's the mind in surrender to
its source. That's the metaphor of teacher and student. Mind
in surrender to Itself, its source. And in that you don't,
to truly experience guru or teacher or master, there's not
an experience that I'm a person and she's a person and we're
having this relationship. The separation is somehow annihilated
in the meeting of the true master. Someone had asked me recently
in a talk in Ojai, CA, "What is this relationship with
the master? What is this thing that happens?" And what
I said to them and I'll I'll just speak it out because I think
it was probably the clearest I've ever said it. It's like
a wave on the ocean. It's going around splashing, playing,
having a good time, playing with dolphins. And suddenly it
has the desire, "I'd like to know my source. I've heard
that my source is the ocean but I'm I am not experiencing
that." So it goes in search of its source and maybe some
wise waves tell it, "Well, you know, it's the ocean.
That's who you are." It says, "Yes, yes, I know,
I've heard that, but I I I want to experience it. I haven't
experienced it. I just I understand it but I haven't experienced
it." So maybe it goes on a long search and finally out
of some mysterious compassion for a miniscule part of itself,
the entire ocean rises up in a single wave and says, "Look,
tide, this is you." And the little wave goes, "My
God, it's myself looking like a wave." Looking like what
it thinks it is, but actually radiating what it really is.
And that's really the experience when I met Gangaji. I saw
someone who looked like what I thought I was, a woman, you
know, in her early 50s, late 40s. I think I was 48 when I
met Gangaji, she was about 52. She was about my size ________,
looking just like me, talking just like me but radiating what
I really was. Looking like what I thought I was but radiating
what I truly was. And somehow that's what that mysterious
transmission was what broke through the illusion of myself
as who I thought I was.
Bruce
Now a lot of people think you have to go through years and
years and years and years of preparation before this can happen
and yet I think, as I recall in the book, Gangaji says it
can happen in an instant.
Amber
Yes. And I I have a a a an example which I will give which
which can illustrate that. I have a friend who became my friend
as when he came out of prison. He actually had been in prison
for 18 years. He'd robbed banks. He'd blown up power stations.
He'd been on the 10 Most Wanted list in the United States.
He was a hoodlum of the grandest order. He was put in prison
in Colorado and somehow Gangaji came and spoke at that prison
one day to some prisoners there. A few, just I think 20, 15,
20 men not a big group. And he saw her and woke up to the
Truth of his being. He saw himself so powerfully as he'd never
seen himself before and realized that all the story of his
life, the story of of John as a bank robber and prisoner and
all the things that he thought of himself somehow ended and
he saw himself as he truly is in her eyes. And he now he got
out of prison just last just last a year and a half ago or
so. And he is now speaking this in a in a very beautiful way.
He's telling his story of how he woke up and this was someone
who had never meditated, who'd never read a spiritual book
really before that. He he wasn't spiritually inclined. He
actually even used to tell people who, there was a a video
group there at the prison that used to watch Gangaji's videos
and he used to tell them, "You're wasting your time."
He said, "The Buddhas have been doing this for years.
And you really have to work for it. You just can't wake up
like she says you can." And he was actually trying to
tell people that she was lying, that she was a fraud. But
in the meeting with her, everything stopped. All his thoughts
about it, about enlightenment, about himself, about anything
stopped. And he woke up. So it really was quite amazing to
a lot of people who like myself had been meditating and doing
yoga and __________ and doing all these penances for enlightenment
and here's this man who whose practice had been robbing banks
and blowing up, you know, actually environmental terrorism
is what he was involved in for a while. That was his practice.
See we're all practicing. We're all practicing something.
And these practices are all of the mind, whether they're called
spiritual practices or whether they're called practices…
Bruce
Anti-social behavior.
Amber
Or or or or social behavior or or or getting getting ahead
on Wall Street _____ whatever. Whatever kind of practices,
these are the practices of the mind for the mind to get, strategies
of the mind for the mind to get what it thinks will fulfill
it. And all of these practices ultimately have to stop for
you to see that what you are practicing in order to get, what
you're strategizing in order to get, is actually who are all
along, who you've always been. And all this work of the mind,
whether it was spiritual work or worldy work or hoodlum work
was overshadowing, just kind of over, the busyiness, that
over overlooked the fact that who you are is already free,
already fulfilled, needing no experience for fulfillment.
Bruce
But you would agree that the mind is very cunning, right?
Amber
Very cunning.
Bruce
And and I mean the the bottom line is that this sounds like
oh, that's all you have to do. But that's not all you have
to do. This is not like, I mean when you when you say it can
happen, I mean there's a tremendous amount of surrender or
stopping as as Gangaji puts it which for many people is practically
impossible.
Amber
Yes, and the the the, when I was speaking in Seattle recently,
there's a Unity Church where I speak there and there's a a
very beautiful embossed gold brass embossed thing over the
wall there in back of the, in back of me in in this little
chapel where I speak. And it says, "Be still and know
that I am God." And I say to _____ when I speak there
at this chapel, I always say to those people, "This this
sounds like a very innocent kind of invitation, doesn't it?
'Be still and know that I am God.' But I'm telling you that
being still is very ruthless. It's a ruthless invitation because
to be still, you have to stop everything that you're doing,
all the practices. And the practices are simply what you're
reaching for and what you're pushing away. It's as simple
as that but it's not so simple in that you really want what
you're reaching for and you don't want what you're pushing
away. So to stop pushing that stuff away, you . But in the
moment of stop, the invitation is to let everything come that
you've been pushing away. Including unenlightenment if that's
what you've been reaching for. And everything, let everything
go, that you've been reaching for. That you've been wanting,
that you've been trying to get. When you when you're willing
to let everything go that you want, and let, just in the moment,
just in an instant, just to let everything go that you want,
and let everything come in that you hate, that you are terrified
of, in that moment the mind can rest because its job has ended,
because the mind's job to reach for what it wants, to push
away what it doesn't want. So in the moment of the willingness
to just stop, you're willing to not have what you want and
to have all that you don't want. You're willing in that moment
to just let everything be as it is. And that's a very powerful
moment in the lifestream. And for myself, I can say that the
willingness to really stop somehow came in the presence of
meeting Gangaji. Because she was stopped. So she radiates
that stop. ________ is just so ruthless to just be still in
every moment.
Bruce
Now you you you basically had quite a problem as far as your
relationship with her was concerned cause you describe in
your book the fact that you literally became dependent or
attached, I guess without even realizing it had happened.
Amber
That attachment was not a problem. The attachment with the
teacher is the greatest blessing of a lifetime. The attachment
is no problem. The only problem, and where I would get into
suffering with it, which I describe in the book is when I
would try to somehow control her. To to have some control
over how she was treating me, and when she was, you know,
how when she was noticing me, or when she was giving me that
I might want or not want. That tendency to want to control
the relationship was the problem.
Bruce
Yeah, and I mean you you basically say that that again here
we are back with the mind, the mind has a preconceived notion
and a set of parameters that make it very, very exciting to
to to be dwelling on the idea of enlightenment as long as
it fits within those parameters.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
As as soon as it moves outside the parameters or is, as you're
saying, uncontrollable, then the mind doesn't want any part
of it because it's not part of what it's it's expecting to
happen.
Amber
That's right. And it freaks out and it wants to start controlling
and manipulating again. And that, when I found, that's the
mind arose again. After the first initial stopping with her,
awakening to myself, there was a an arising again of the mind
for a strategy to keep her like I wanted her. And she being
a very true teacher was not willing to play that game. You
know, she is not controllable. Thank thankfully she's not
controllable. So…
Bruce
And couldn't, and couldn't be controllable even, not just
by you but by anything since since she's not part of the mind
game.
Amber
No, she isn't.
Bruce
I mean and I and I think if I were to look at this thing let's
say from the mind's point of view, the bottom line here is
that in general you've got the world operating in the mind
game and those people who are quote-unquote "enlightened"
are not playing the mind game. That's what makes them different.
Amber
That's right. That's why they're so terrifying to the mind.
When I, as I ______ mention in the book, when I first met
her I fell in love with her, deeply, deeply in love with her.
And then long about the first few I think it was maybe the
first or second week with her, no actually it was the first
few days with her, she walked in the room one day and I was
terrified of her. There was a terror that struck into my heart
and I realized "My gosh, she's gonna kill me." And
I realized in that moment how uncontrollable she is. Because
in this moment of being still, of actually being willing to
stop so totally…
Bruce
Let's let's go back and define for the for the listeners what
you meant by being killed.
Amber
Being killed?
Bruce
Cause I mean obviously, I mean I read the book. I'm real familiar
with what you're saying, I mean this is this is death. This
is the ego. This is what the ego is striving to not have happen.
Amber
That's right. That's what all the activity of mind does not
want to happen. That's what all the reaching for what you
want and pushing away what you don't want is the goal of,
is the survival of this "I" that you think youself
to be. In the meeting with the true master, that terror, you
will feel that terror, that's how you know it's real. That's
how I knew this was really the master. Because I knew I was
over and the "I" that I thought I was was terrified
by that. It knew it was it's it's game was up kind of thing.
And there was a terror that arose. But fortunately the attachment
to her, the love for her was so strong before that that I
couldn't move even in that terror. There was not the ability
anymore to run from her. And there was the impulse a couple
or three times. I would I would say the impulse arose many
times after that. But because she's ruthless in her in her
uncontrollableness and her ruthless ____ in exposing of the
habit patterns of mind and the tendencies of mind and the
strategies of mind. All the things you never wanted to see
about yourself will become clear.
Bruce
Now people don't understand this when they first start out.
I mean, as you pointed out, and as I read from the end of
your book there, you know, people are real happy to improve
themselves, quote-unquote "improve their mind,"
you know, have nice things happen, make their body look better.
They have all these preconceived notions that preserve the
"I" .
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
What they don't ever think about is that enlightenment has
nothing to do with that thing.
Amber
That's right.
Bruce
That, now that is very terrifying.
Amber
That's true.
Bruce
Now before we go, before we go any farther, Amber Terrell
is my guest. The book is called "Surprised By Grace"
and and and frankly folks, I read, I loved the book and and
I certainly urge you to read it. I I promised you Amber that
we could we could have a half hour interview or if you wanted
to continue, we could continue. So, I I kind of want to take
this moment to say to you, if you want to continue, great.
If not, then we'll take a few minutes to kind of sum it up.
Your choice.
Amber
Let's continue.
Bruce
OK, so what I want to do then for those people that are listening
over the internet or certainly listening on the radio, we're
gonna take a break. When we come back, more… I hope that
you're as excited about this thing as I am because it's definitely
a different view of what we had all supposed enlightenment
would be. We'll be right back in a few moments.
BREAK
Bruce
And we are back. Bruce Steven Holmes. Timeless Voyager
Radio is the show and my guest is Amber Terrell. If you've
been listening on the internet, of course you've just plugged
yourself into Part 2. On the radio though you may have missed
the first part. And if if that's happened, you can always
go to the web page, which is www.timelessvoyager.com. You're
also a musician. As a matter of fact I have a CD of yours
that you sent and and it's kind of interesting, I think I'll
I'll I'll let people know you and I actually had kind of a
a meeting back around 1972. I don't know what you remember
about that but a friend of ours or or or a friend that we
both share gave me a tape of one of your songs, a group of
songs that you had written back in 1972.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
So you have this CD. What is the name of the CD for our listeners?
Amber
"Awakened From a Dream."
Bruce
And also posted on the site I'll have a an MP3 file for them
if they'd like to listen to it. And and if they would like
to learn more about how to get the CD themselves, the book,
any of the other information, they can go to your website
which is www.riverganga r-i-v-e-r-g-a-n-g-a .org. Alright,
with that in mind we were talking about this and and this
is a great reason for using the word "illusion,"
certainly one of the illusions is that enlightenment somehow
satisfies the needs of the mind. And you say, it doesn't.
So continue and tell us about the ruthlessness that's that
is apparently there waiting for us.
Amber
Well, we were talking about the attachment to the teacher.
And also you were talking about, you mentioned how the mind
is very wiley. And it it, often I see people, they meet Gangaji.
They just fall in love. They think it's wonderful. And then
they say, "Gangaji, just really be ruthless with me.
I really want to receive everything from you. And just be
real ruthless with me and and I want to be your student."
And as soon as the sword comes out, as long as she's giving
them flowers, they're happy. When the sword comes out…
Bruce
One slap…
Amber
… they're out the door, you know. Hey, this isn't what
I had in mind. I wanted the flowers. I wanted to have this
love affair with this beautiful teacher and and hey what's
going on here, you know. So, I've seen this happen many times.
I've seen my own mind want to run many times.
Bruce
Why don't we give a couple pragmatic examples of the sword.
I think it's good for the listeners to hear this. You you
wrote some great examples. So why don't you take your choice
and just give them something that they can really get their
teeth into.
Amber
Well, when I first met Gangaji she encouraged me to sing.
I was, I was kind of a closet songwriter before I met her.
I didn't, I rarely performed anything. Occasionally did for
friends or for small gatherings but very, very occasionally.
And when I did, I usually was a basketcase before, during
and after, in terms of being nervous. And I was just too shy
to really be a performer. But I I did write music and when
when Gangaji found out that I wrote music she would have me
sing in front of the gatherings, the satsang gatherings. "Satsang"
is what we often call this coming together in Truth. "Satsang"
means "association with Truth." So she would often
have me play and it was, you know, two or three hundred people
there often. So she really showed me that this all nervousness
I had was all in my mind and and in the emptiness that she
pointed me to, the songs could flow out quite effortlessly
in front of a large group. So she had me singing a lot and
and she basically would kind of praise me a lot for my music
and just, you know, kind of her favorite singer for a while.
And then she began to, you know, sort of not praise me as
much and praise other people for their singing and almost
sort of saying that I wasn't, you know, such a great singer
and and just kind of …
Bruce
So, you kind of had like a falling from grace or…
Amber
Yeah, kind of a a a showing, you know, there was such a joy
when she was praising me so much for it. And then like, for
instance one day I I wrote a song for her that she'd asked
me to write. It was really the first one that she had said,
"Oh, we should have a song about happy to be here."
And that was in a particular satsang in Maui and I said, "Oh!"
So I went home and wrote a song called "Happy To Be Here."
And then I brought it to satsang the next day and I put a
note up on her chair saying I have a song about "Happy
To Be Here" I'd like to sing for you. And I was all excited
about singing this song for her that she, kind of proud at
the fact that I had written this song for her that she had
asked me to write and she, so she said, "Oh, Amber
wants to sing a song. OK." So she had me sing the song
and as I writing, singing the song, she had someone else come
up to the front and she was talking with them the whole time.
And completely ignoring this song that I was so proud of,
that I had written for her. And I was just mortified that
in front of everyone that she had kind of, I felt, slighted
me, that she had, that she had really kind of ignored the
song that I'd written. And I felt a lot of things arise in
my heart about, "Gee, hey she, this is, she's dangerous,"
you know. She she kind of coaxed me out of my closet of of
singing, not you know being the closet songwriter, and and
and got me singing in front of people, kind of got me excited
about being the performer and being the favorite singer and
all this. And then she cut the cord and that actually continued
and got even more ruthless. She actually had me sing in one
group, she had, first she had a a a friend of mine sing that
she and and she praised the song and said, "Oh, so beautiful.
So beautiful." And then she had me sing and while I was
singing she left the room. She left and things like that.
She would do things like that to show me where I was still
identified with myself as someone, as some person who had
these particular emotional needs and needed to be kind of
treated in a certain way.
Bruce
Now, let me, let me…
Amber
And how I was still trying to control her in that way.
Bruce
Yeah, now we'll just stop for a second. Now you know, this
is this is where I have to say, and certainly you can disagree
with me if you want but somewhere along the line, all of your
past training at least allowed you the privilege of questioning
what was going on. There are other people who could not have
gotten past the the image or the or the illusion of what what
seemed to be going on. I mean I I've got to say that that
somewhere along the line, all of the all of the work that
you did would allow you to be in a place that would at least
allow you to accept this and work with it. Because not everybody
is going to see what you saw.
Amber
You know, I I I really am not, I can't really say that all
that I had studied helped me in this at all. Because I know
I know a lot of people that have studied just as much as I
have and understand it as well as I do…
Interview Oh, now I'm not saying that.
Amber
And they there there wasn't the ability to stay.
Bruce
Actually that's not what, I guess I wasn't clear. I guess
what I'm trying to say is that since you said it so well in
the book, you said after 26 years you felt like you had wasted
your time.
Amber
Oh, I see what you mean.
Bruce
At this point in your life you're saying to yourself, "I'm
going to stick through this thing. I don't care because it's
obvious that nothing else that I've ever done has worked."
I guess maybe that's clear. I don't know if that's better
but that's what I think I was trying to say.
Amber
Yeah, that that actually I could say that that is how it served.
That I I had tried everything and I knew there were no more
things to try. And there was one point when Gangaji actually
made me her assistant for a while. She let me be her assistant
and I I just loved doing that. And she fired me from being
her assistant.
Bruce
That's great.
Amber
And of course I hated that, you know. And and she really was
has been quite ruthless and still continu es to be with giving
me every. There's actually one song that I wrote recently
that's that's not on the album yet. It's it will be on the
new album that is coming out soon. Which which the line in
it says, "You are my dream come true and you are my hanging
cross. You are the sweetness that remains after all is lost."
And really what she does is she gives you everything that
you've ever wanted and then she takes it all away. So that
you can see that none of that has anything to do with who
you are. And people of course love to get everything they
want when they first meet her, and they of course hate having
everything taken away. And I see that the mind does not like
that. The mind does not want that and will think of very clever
ways of slipping away from that. And and there's a there's
a lot of people teaching right now. There's a lot of teachers
available in the United States. And what I see people do is
go from one to the other, one to the other, looking for the
honeymoon, looking for the one that will give them everything
they want. And then as soon as the one, that teacher takes
starts taking things away, they go to another teacher to get
everything they want, and then another teacher…
Bruce
Reminds me of the way people have relationships.
Amber
It's exactly like that except it's promiscuity in the field
of guruship.
Bruce
Very interesting word.
Amber
It's promiscuity. It's it's not being true to what you're
here for. Which is to burn up the impulse to identify yourself
with this person that needs things.
Bruce
And once again this is the mind.
Amber
The mind.
Bruce
This is the mind's controlling factor. This is what the mind
wants. It's like a game.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
You want enlightenment as long as it fits into the parameters.
Amber
Yes. That's it. You want you want it in your own terms. And
definitely by the time I met Gangaji I sort of gave up that
I could ever even get this, you know, with any way that I
could do it. I really had given up that there was any way
that it could be gotten somehow by me. And in meeting her
I recognized this is the Self, this is the true teacher. This
is this is what I've been longing for and it's also what I've
been running from. And then you're willing to stop.
Bruce
Now, it used to be taboo for a person to announce their level
of, whatever it is, consciousness, I don't know what it is.
I I don't mean that in a in a derogatory manner. I mean, I
actually don't know what it is anymore. They used to have
names for the different levels of consciousness and I can't
even get straight on what they are anymore. But the point
I'm saying is that, it seemed it seems almost, well it doesn't
almost, I can't even say it the right way, it's just different
to have somebody come out and say, "Look. I did it."
It's just, what can I say, I can't think of any other way
to say it.
Amber
If you, if…
Bruce
And I'm not, incidentally, I'm not questioning whether you've
done it or not. You know what I'm saying. And as as a matter
of fact to be perfectly honest with you, you know what I've
said to many people is, "Actually I don't care where
other people are. I'm the one I'm concerned about."
Amber The truth is there isn't anyone else.
Bruce
But but and and you're right and and that's right, and I understand
that and I and I and I and I live that way but but but for
the sake of listeneners, and a lot of people are are are,
you know, true seekers that really, really want something
and they're listening and they're saying, "OK, I see
what the problem is. Now I know what I have to do." OK,
well, if somebody's sitting back there and they're saying,
"I know what I have to do." What would you say at
that moment? What do they have to do?
Amber
Nothing. They have to stop doing what they're doing. And see
truthfully what it is that they're doing.
Bruce
Now, be specific. Give us some examples.
Amber
OK. OK. There is no how to stop. The how is how is what you're
doing. You see what I mean? Stopping doesn't have a how associated
with it. The how is how you're moving, how you're reaching
for this and pushing away that. And so I would say that it's
useful, and what I say to people when I when I speak in different
places is I I suggest to people _____ just examine what is
unreachable ______ pushing away. And then see if _________.
Stop. _________ just for a moment and see what is here, already
here.
Bruce
In the book you gave a great example. I think it was with
your husband who after explaining all the things that he was
striving for, it came down to recognition. Right? I think
that's how I remember it. I mean, am I am I off on the wrong…?
Amber
Say that again, I don't quite…
Bruce
Somewhere somewhere in the book I remember I I I think your
husband was just being introduced to, well not being introduced,
but but I guess in a sense surrendering to your need or to
your want of being with Gangaji. And I think there was a little
bit of a conflict where where he had things he wanted to do,
he was going to school, so on and so forth. And and and I
think the question that came up was what was he striving for.
And then he, I think as I remember in the book, he basically
after a few minutes of of investigating realized that all
he was really striving for was recognition.
Amber
Yes, this is telling the truth.
Bruce
Right, and so and so, this is an element in this in this practice
too of actually finding out what the truth is for you.
Amber
Yes. And and that's the ruthless sort of self-investigation
that can take place. What do I really want? And that, everyone
knows what the right answer is. I want enlightenment, I want
Truth, I want peace for all beings. But to really, really
look at what is your life about. What what motivates the things
that you push away and the things that you reach for. What
is that motivation there and then to just see it.
Bruce
Because the mind is always lying about that, isn't it?
Amber
Oh, yeah.
Bruce
Because the mind…
Amber
The mind is a huge liar.
Bruce
Because the mind is always saying, "Oh, I really don't
want this for myself. I want it for others." Right? I
mean, that's what the mind would say
Amber
You know it's absolutely selfish.
Bruce
Right.
Amber
Absolutely selfish.
Bruce
So the mind…
Amber
It has ways of covering that.
Bruce
Well, I'm saying, the mind is so cunning, it's fantastic.
I mean, it can come up with an answer for everything.
Amber
Yes. Recently someone asked me in a speech in a talk I was
giving, how can you, the person was very clearly seeing how
wiley their mind was, how absolutely, how it circumvents,
and how it can take any amount of truth that it realized and
then take that into the mind and use it somehow. It's survival
of the ego. And I said, "This is true seeing. This is
exactly what the mind does." And they said, "Well,
how can that be circumvented." And I said, "With
love." Love, the heart is what in my in my experience,
the heart is what circumvented the mind. The fact that I fell
in love with Gangaji so deeply that I had to listen, I had
I could not run anymore. I was, I had to stop.
Bruce
I mean people who who who who are not really familiar with
what we're talking about could say that was quite an abusive
relationship.
Amber
(laughter)
Bruce
Or is quite an abusive relationship.
Amber
It would, it…
Bruce
Especially from your from from your side of it. You sound
like this, I I mean I'm being very frank, you sound like this
very weak person who is being abused by a very strong person.
That's what it sounds like on the surface.
Amber
Well, if you look at this relationship as a person and a person,
you could maybe look at it that way.
Bruce
Well, I'm not saying it is that way. I'm just saying…
Amber
But it's not a person and a person. It's it's it's it's the
mind surrendering to the Self.
Bruce
And I see that.
Amber
It's the mind in surrender to Itself. And certainly if if
there if a person surrenders to a person in the way, this
kind of way, and there is many examples, probably know some
yourself of teacher/student relationships that have been abusive,
that have been some misuse of power involved. And when the
one that's acting as teacher is not fully in in alignment
with Self, is not fully empty, is not true to the Truth totally,
then that there that possibility does arise. Fortunately this
explosion of love that took place for me was with a true teacher.
A teacher who does not move, does not believe for one moment
that you are separate from her.
Bruce
Let's define the term "move." Just for, because
there are a lot of people who have not read the book.
Amber
"Moving" means "moving toward and moving away."
Moving in the mind, moving toward, reaching for something
________.
Bruce
Now you say that, cause you've said it a number of times.
You've said and you've said so many times I can't even remember.
But going towards, pushing away, the mind is always trying
to put itself into a comfortable place. Right?
Amber
That's right.
Bruce
So if it's something that it thinks will make it more comfortable,
it goes to get it.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
If there's something that seems to be making it less comfortable,
it's pushing it away.
Amber
Yes, and and elaborate layers of strategies for doing both
are developed from birth. From the time you start crying for
food or crying for attention as a child, you begin to build
strategies for this kind of comfort. And different people
have different strategies and different people like different
things, you know.
Bruce
Sure.
Amber
But so people have very unique sets of strategies. But these
strategies are what then get applied to the spiritual path
when you meet the teacher. Or you meet God, they get applied
to God. That you want you want to get what you want to get
from God and you want to get away from what you don't want
from God or from the teacher. So the strategies are then applied
to the spiritual path as well. And that is what a true teacher
will bust you on. Because that doesn't work. That is also
a strategy, that's just strategy.
Bruce
So, that's what…
Amber
Although it looks spiritual…
Bruce
Right.
Amber
… it's just strategy.
Bruce
So, "move" is that. And stopping…
Amber
Yes, using strategies.
Bruce
And stopping is not that.
Amber
Right. Stopping is the letting go of all the strategies. And
moving is using the strategies.
Bruce
So now when a person wants to do this type of self-investigation
or or what would, what is it called actually, cause there's
probably a correct word for it.
Amber
Self-inquiry.
Bruce
Self-inquiry.
Amber
Letting go.
Bruce
What are the kinds of, yeah, letting go, I means that's that
that is such an easy thing to say. And such an easy thing
to pretend to be doing.
Amber
That's right.
Bruce
So what is the real letting go? How is that done?
Amber
I don't know. It's Grace. That's why I titled the book "Surprised
By Grace." Because when I met Gangaji somehow everything
stopped. And that was the Grace, that was, I didn't do anything.
I suddenly just stopped when she walked in the room. And my
my take on that is just because she is so completely still,
she radiates this stillness, that somehow I was able to catch
it. It was it was it was catching. So from my perspective
in my experience, be, and some people have caught it from
me…
Bruce
Right, which…
Amber
… you know
Bruce
And I've heard this, so so the the the real issue here is
that for some particular reason, still in this day and age,
there is a need for that physically contact. Something…
Amber
With the teacher?
Bruce
Yeah, somebody has to be there or and I don't want to put
this put the words out, I'll put into the form of a question.
Does someone have to be there to impart to you something that
is not of the mind, that that you you termed the word, you
used the word "Grace." I mean whatever anyone wants
to call it. Being zapped, whatever it is. Somewhere along
the line there is a, what a third thing that needs to happen.
Is that? I don't even, that's still not the question.
Amber
You know, I know some people, I know there are some people
that have woken up to the truth of themselves and stopped
completely without a physical teacher being present. Ramana
Maharshi who's the teacher of Papaji was that, he was 16 years
old and he just had the fear of death arose one day and he
just decided to lay down on the floor and say, "OK, what
is this? What is death? Who dies?" And investigate this
fear of no survival, of death of the mind really is what he's
investigating. And he and he woke up so completely that he
for many years after that hardly ever spoke. He just sat in
silence in bliss and people came and sat in his presence.
But he didn't even know they were there. They would come to
sit with him because he was radiating such incredible peace
and and and joy and silence. He didn't have a human teacher
and I I there are there are examples of that, that I know
here in the West, where people have just suddenly woken up,
suddenly stopped.
Bruce
But it's nice to have somebody to…
Amber
Well…
Bruce
…to do something or to at least help you, like training
wheels on a bike or something.
Amber
Not not what I would say is, I I would never propose to say,
"Gee you need a teacher" or "You don't."
But my experience is that I did. That I had to have, I had
to have a form that looked just like me, that was very similar
to myself somehow that worked with me in the way that Gangaji
worked with me. I I I needed that. It wasn't possible for
me without that. Gangaji says the same about her experience
with meeting Papaji. She said, "I needed to have a teacher,
guru, stop me in the way that he did and work with me in the
way that he did. That was essential." Papaji was 8 years
old when he woke up but he spent many years of his life searching
for somehow way to make it permanent. And he went from teacher
to teacher to teacher to ashram to ashram to ashram. He was
a saint from a very young age. He was able to manifest Krishna,
not only for himself but for others. Show people Krishna,
Krishna the God. A very incredible being and yet it wasn't
until he met Ramana that he fully, fully realized that there's
no, there's no place, you don't have to reach for this, you
don't have to reach for God. God is right here.
Bruce
Now you say it very well in the book. There's power and there's
freedom.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
We have a lot of people searching for power right now.
Amber
Yes.
Bruce
But power does not bring freedom.
Amber
No. Personal power has nothing to do with freedom. Personal
power it what's called a "siddhi." In Sanskrit it's
called a "siddhi," a yogic power, they call it.
And we all have powers of all the strategies that we have
are siddhis. They're powers of mind.
Bruce
So once again, it's all in the mind.
Amber
It's all in the mind. There's a beautiful story where Papaji
is walking along the River Ganga, the holy river up in the
Himalayas on a pilgrimage and he meets this beautiful old
yogi there who has a staff, a beautiful carved staff. And
and the yogi says, the meet, and they have a meal together,
they kind of like each other, they sit down together that
night by the Ganga, have a meal. And the and the yogi says,
"You know, my master gave me this beautiful staff. And
my master was a great Sidha. He had all this power, yogic
powers. He gave me all these powers. He gave me this staff
which is the power of immortality. I will not die like other
men. He also gave me…" And and and Papaji says,
"Well, show me what what you can do." The yogi says,
"OK." So he levitated off the ground and he became
invisible and he showed Papaji some of his powers. And then
the yogi said, "But you know, you have what I want. You
have this peace that I want. My master said, 'I can give you
all these powers.' He said on his dying breath, he said to
me, 'I've given you all these powers, but I could not give
you freedom because I don't have that. I just have these powers.
But you will meet someone who will give you these this freedom.'
" And when this yogi met Papaji that night, he said,
"I I know you're the one my master told me about. Will
you give me this freedom?" And so the yogi said, and
so Papaji said, "Well, how bad do you want it?"
And he said, "I want it with everything I have."
And so Papaji says, "OK, give me the staff." The
staff of immortality that the yogi had. So he gave Papaji,
he sort of hesitated a moment and then he gave Papaji the
staff and Papaji broke it over his knee and threw it in the
Ganga. He said, "There, now you will die like other men."
And they sat there in silence, meditating. And finally the
yogi opened his eyes, and laughing and laughing, just in total
joy, he said, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."
And he prostrated at Papaji's feet and said, "I will
serve you the rest of my life." And Papaji said, "No,
no, I don't need anyone to serve me. Go and live your life
of freedom." And Gangaji told this story when I first
met her and it really affected me very deeply, because I was
on a path, as you know, Bruce, where I was studying
yogic powers and trying, wanting to get the yogic powers.
And that story just somehow woke me up, shocked me enough
awake, to the to the to the truth that these powers also are
just in the mind. They come and they go, even the power of
immortality. So what? Even the earth itself passes away eventually.
Bruce
Very _____, very well said.
Amber
What, but what is here, what is here always, what doesn't
come and go with with the coming and going of bodies, with
the coming and going of strategies of mind, powers, with the
coming and going of planets, with the sun being born and the
sun disappearing in heavens, what doesn't come and go, what
that all that arises in, to know that that is who you are.
That's invoking freedom. And that's what Gangaji radiates,
what she speaks and points to with every word that she speaks.
And what she will push you deeper and deeper into, if you
open to her.
Bruce
I couldn't have thought of a better way to finalize the show.
That was perfect. What else can I say? You know what I, we
used to always joke though, you know like, "Well, so
after that, what's next?"
Amber
But you can't say that now, can you?
Bruce
I can. So, so after you've accomplished that, then what do
you do?
Amber
Why do you need to know that?
Bruce
I don't know. You, you're being right. That's right. That's
great. That's great. There with the mind.
Amber
You, you…
Bruce
The mind's question.
Amber
Recognize that and then tell us.
Bruce
That's great, though. I really appreciate it. What a great
story. What a great book. Amber Terrell. The book is called
"Surprised By Grace, a Journey Beyond Personal Enlightenment."
And boy I tell you, if you didn't get it now, you're not going
to have a chance. What's next for you besides you're you're
teaching now and and you're travelling, I guess?
Amber
Well…
Bruce
What would you like to do? What is, what… I I know that's
not the right question, so.
Amber
There is a a, the life that Gangaji invited me to when I first
met her, she invited me into a life that doesn't look like
anything. And I I didn't quite know what she meant back then.
She invited me to live, she invited me to be no one at all.
To live a life that looked like nothing. And I said, "Oh,
yeah, sure, I want that. I want that." But I didn't really
know what that was back then. And now what I find the push
into is into this life that cannot, you cannot get a handle
on what it looks like. Like my mom and my friends _____, "Oh
yeah, this is so great, you know you have this book out. You're
travelling around. You're speaking." I say, "Yeah,
but if I start believing that, if I start believing that I
have this book out and I'm travelling around speaking, I'm
dead in the water again." I'm, this is just the thought
of it again. The true life cannot be thought, it can never
be known, how I'm serving or what it looks like. You can kind
of looks backwards sometimes and see but I never know what
is next. If I start knowing what's next that's again that's
back in my wanting to control it, wanting somehow to be in
charge again, having the mind be in charge. The mind is continually
being slain. It arises, yes, but it continually is slain.
I I I said to Gangaji recently, "You watch every thought
as it arises." And if I reach out to touch it, I am slain.
I is no match for you. This is the life in surrender to the
master, the mind in surrender to the Self. When I say to "you,"
when I say to Gangaji, "You watch every thought,"
I mean this that one is, itself, this hugeness, this unknowable
freedom, unspeakable freedom, that's what I mean by "you."
Because that's how it appeared to me. It appeared as Gangaji.
To someone else it may appear some other way. But it appeared
for me as her so forever that freedom has this flavor of her
to it. That's the mystery of master, the mystery of teacher
and disciple. It's not it's not a person and a person. It's
the mind constantly, to the last breath, surrendering itself
to its source.
Bruce
Alright. Thank you so much.
Amber
Thank you, Bruce.
Bruce
What a great interview. I I I really just appreciate the fact
that you took the time to do it. Again as I said before, I
really enjoyed the book. I I I as a as a talkshow host, it's
rare that I ever do more than just scan the book as you were
so surprised that I actually read it, but you have a very
compelling style and and it's and it's easy, and it's not
filled with a lot of stuff, a lot of B.S. There was a lot
of good material in there and I appreciate that. And and it
just shows that that your teacher has done well with you.
And the rest of us…
Amber
She will say she didn't do anything.
Bruce
And the rest of us will envy you until we get rid of our mind.
So, with that, thanks so much.
Amber
The mind doesn't have to be gotten rid of.
Bruce
Well, you know I was gonna…
Amber
Doesn't have to be gotten rid of.
Bruce
I was gonna start that… that's another, that's another
show.
Amber
It just has to not be believed to be real. To be believed
as who you are. Then it's no problem if the mind arises. No
problem ____ world
Bruce
There must be a, there must be a purpose for it. It's just
way out of out of out of its domain.
Amber
It's not what you think. But it reveals itself.
Bruce
Alright. Thank you so much for being with us.
Amber
Thank you.
Bruce
Timeless Voyager Radio is the show and again for those of
you who want to learn more about this experience and and contact
Amber, if you'd like to. And of course, if you're on on the
page, I'll have a a link there for you. Thanks, Amber.
Amber
Thank you, Bruce. |
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